Developer Update - 18 May 2023

[polyjitter]

I think there are two things here:

Pay 2 Win Mechanics

It’s a weighty document, but I think the Minecraft monetization guidelines are a pretty good place to start, as they’re pretty comprehensive:

terms | Minecraft

In their own words:

The focus is on ensuring that whatever servers sell to people, it’s not a thing designed to give someone a competitive gameplay advantage or make another player’s experience worse. It also provides a clear definition for what we consider a competitive gameplay advantage… [also] allowing the sale of effects that influence everyone in the same way and barring the sale of items that affect gameplay.

So, for example, in Minecraft:

• No purchasing more attack power, or better quality equipment
• No purchasing more lives

However, it would allow purchasing buffs that affect all players in the lobby, just as long as it doesn’t give a gameplay advantage, such as a gold or EXP increase.

Minecraft is also a good example because these rules apply to not just Minecraft specific gameplay elements, but also elements added on top of the game (like new gamemodes). VRChat is a lot more flexible than Minecraft, but I think wording this around the same exact “no competitive advantage in a V.S.” game should be the focus.

Moderation of this will require discretion, and I know that would require legalese I’m not equipped to suggest, so I’d defer to your legal team. But the focus should be - in game worlds, with a competitive focus, no purchases should be advertised as something which could be reasonably construed as a gameplay advantage.

Infinite MTX

Honestly, this one is kind of just, don’t give access to tools that allow world creators to put in infinite “click this button to pay $1.00, as many times as you want!” buttons. This leads to, often, gacha mechanics. If provided, worlds would easily fall into lootcrate/gatcha mechanics as seen in most games today.

If there is a legitimate purpose you can think of for this button to exist, I would actually like to hear it, because I’m not confident I’m accounting for everything. If there is, though, perhaps targeting gambling mechanics, and not allowing creators to put in pay 4 roll systems.

Note I’m not against IAPs, you make great points about how one-time payments could be useful. But if there is no limit to how many times a purchase can be made, I can’t see a situation such a button could be used where it wouldn’t be predatory.

[SuperFlue]

I think one-time “consumables” should not be allowed, as that is what is most predatory IMO.
I.e. single use things that are gone forever once you use it.

So your “Golden Gun” is a decent example. Something that you can use once per round is (probably?) fine.
But if it’s like you buy, then use it once and then have to buy again, then that should not be allowed.

And definitely anything getting real money in any way close to gambling is right out…

[Zack3D]

I just want to point out the ‘gatcha/lootcrate’ thing, this wont lead to it, because that suggests its not already here. It is here, right now, and this will exacerbate it. Idle Home, one of the top vrchat worlds right now, literally has a section called gatcha, where you open a crate, items spin in front of you, and you get an item with bonuses. You can pay for guaranteed keys for this, more keys for more money.

[kitballard]

@polyjitter

Note I’m not against IAPs, you make great points about how one-time payments could be useful. But if there is no limit to how many times a purchase can be made, I can’t see a situation such a button could be used where it wouldn’t be predatory.

There would also need to be a system to remember players that “paid” for the unlock. Say I do a Golden Boarder for my cards in my game world as an unlock. Right now, I would have a bot string check patreon to make sure that player is still subbed. If they are, award them the board.

Without the future “world save” system, the world will forget you paid for the “perm” unlock and you’d have to buy it again, unlike other games with such an in-app system

[polyjitter]

@Zack3D

I just want to point out the ‘gatcha/lootcrate’ thing, this wont lead to it, because that suggests its not already here. It is here, right now, and this will exacerbate it. Idle Home, one of the top vrchat worlds right now, literally has a section called gatcha, where you open a crate, items spin in front of you, and you get an item with bonuses. You can pay for guaranteed keys for this, more keys for more money.

You do make a good point, and it’s one I thought about touching on, but decided not to since I think Idle Home’s leaderboard already makes it competitive, with world persistence incoming will become even more competitive, meaning it would fall within those rules too. But it is a bit icky that you get guaranteed keys, and maybe gacha/gambling mechanics should be separated and be part of the restrictions explictly too.

[polyjitter]

I definitely think world persistence should be a prerequisite for in-world payments, agree.

[tupper]

@kitballard

A code? That’s cute honestly (no sarcasm). But this has you take extra steps to even get to this point. Many won’t even think of it. But in-app? It’s just as simple as opening your menu and draining what ever debit card or Paypal is attached to the account. That’s how kids get roped, and how you get Whales. If it’s easy, they’ll do it.

Gotcha, so the additional friction of purchase by going out to a site and then having to look up a code is the decision maker here. Interesting…

I don’t have much to add here, but thanks for sharing. I think your description helps a lot to illustrate where you’re seeing the problem.

@polyjitter

It’s a weighty document, but I think the Minecraft monetization guidelines are a pretty good place to start, as they’re pretty comprehensive:

We’ll take a look at this (if we haven’t already, our CE team has done… years of research), but it’s important to note that we consider us and Minecraft very much apples and oranges when it comes to this sort of thing.

@polyjitter

Infinite MTX

Notably, I think our launch implementation doesn’t let this happen at a technical level.

@SuperFlue

So your “Golden Gun” is a decent example. Something that you can use once per round is (probably?) fine.
But if it’s like you buy, then use it once and then have to buy again, then that should not be allowed.

Gotcha. I understand that completely. Anything that allows repeated purchases to just use up isn’t ideal. I believe I personally agree with that viewpoint. I don’t want to say we’re going to write that into guidelines yet, but your point has definitely been heard.

[luigistheman]

Honestly I think that tackling asset ripping is pointless. Like many have said, it is near impossible to prevent those assets from being taken and re-uploaded without permission. That’s honestly why I like the idea of supporting these creators being a subscription model.

Hot take incoming, but why not support your favorite creators on a subscription basis and have assets be distributed freely? Obviously the topic gets more complicated than that and I could write a full explanation of my thoughts on the matter. We’re talking a potential loss of income, exposure of smaller creators versus larger ones, accountability for creators to deliver, etc etc. I think with proper regulation this system could work. Its simply up to the creator to trust and deliver on that system.

[nexvice]

Please get rid of the ripper store, its bots or whatever it uses to collect and re-sell ripped avatars. Avatar creators who don’t sell the assets for upload (like in gumroad) still affected, in fact everyone is but, this will increase trust in the Economy Creator system.

[virus_of_doom]

I don’t have anything specific to add that hasn’t been already said, but I do want to say that I really appreciate how open to feedback and responses @tupper is being here, especially with trying to understand people’s different perspectives and feedback on the topic. There have been plenty of hamfisted “this is what we’re implementing and how we are implementing it is not open to debate” things that have happened over the years on different games/platforms and the openness here is making me feel optimistic about the future creator economy implementation.

[Zack3D]

Idle home is already persistent, you can save your progress to a txt file and load it in any instance. So buying via patreon gets you massive benefits, such as faster earning and those lootcrate keys daily.

[kitballard]

Agreed wholeheartedly. Really appreciate the time to understand us, even if some of us (counting myself) didn’t convey it properly at first

[Zack3D]

I do want to touch on the avatar ripping thing. The issue here isnt that people think it can be 100% solved. The issue is that you cant really sell an avatar/avatar feature through a place where anyone can just open it like a zip file if they just happen to see it somewhere. There is no way to even try and lock it down. I have seen gumroad avatars use the license key feature to lock tools for making it/using it behind a purchase. Sure those still can get ripped out, but there is at least an attempt there that can be improved if needed. Vrchat has no attempt period.

[ReFleX]

As an Avatar Creator myself I am very curious on how the system will be implemented.
VRChat Mall, Avatar worlds turned into that creators shop, and Links set up within the world to download/upload avatar seamlessly. SO many good ways to do it, I’m very excited!

AND I also hope the anti cheat can hold up against people trying to steal things or cheat the system. (aka stealing paid models from that store) Just a scenario.

[Fallen_Ninja]

Since this will be using Groups, is there any plan to allow VRC+ users to be in more than 100? I’m in almost every DJ club’s group and that pushes me close enough to the limit that I have to swap out a non-club group any time I want to join a new one.

[Happyrobot33]

you mention taking action within your rights, I’m just curious if that means there is no way you can forcibly take down ripperstore then? The way I see it the asset bundles hosted on that site should be within your right to remove, but I might be wrong

[ThatGuy]

Hi!

I’d like to weigh in here, if I could.

I really love the idea of the Creator Economy. I think it’s going to be great to be able to float a couple bucks to the people that are making the amazing events and experiences I attend.

Like others, I am concerned about gambling/pay to maybe have a chance of a competitive advantage.

Unfortunately, the part that makes me excited is also what terrifies me. (easily sending tip money to people for their entertaining time)

I frequent public instances. These places are filled with kids. Often, these kids are trying to convince others to buy them FBT. I am concerned that the ability to make ‘tips’ might have kids doing things they absolutely should not be doing, just to get a few bucks. They say what the oldest profession is… I do not want prosti-tots in VRC….

Are you looking at providing an age gate that doesn’t let children monetize themselves, or that doesn’t let children pay for admittance to things intended for the 18+ crowd?

Just a thought. Thanks!

[ReFleX]

The ripper store has been around for years and is only for public avatars
The other more malicious one that lets any user download paid packages for free will always be around. We have attempted to take down the site before and it worked but only for a short time. They paid to have it back up and its Russian owned. They dont listen to any emails or respond half of the time. They wont even take anything down dmca’d cause they use the excuse of the Ukraine war. Nothing we can do unless this system is implemented and done well.

[VoicesShiature]

xD oh no

[kitballard]

I heard it’s going through Cloudflare. Might want to take it up with them. The more reports the more attention Cloudflare may get to such a place. But don’t quote me on this, honestly. I’ve not looked into it myself.