Point 1 is not reasonable, that would remove one of the biggest benefits of this new system for creators, which is making it harder for people to take your content and reupload it for themselves for free or even sell it with minor changes, without permission.
For the fear of content losing support over time in some way, a compromise here could be to give users access to source files in the event that VRC for some reason sunsets a listing. Just show a download link in the avatar listing for those who purchased.
Those people can still buy source files through other places if that’s the experience they want…
This system is providing a streamlined system for people to buy avatars. The vast majority of VRC users are not opening up Unity and customizing their avatar, that’s pretty niche in the grand scheme of things despite what one’s personal perception may be of it.
Given the direct access to users and ease of managing transfer and ownership, creators should be able to offer content for cheaper on the marketplace, knowing you don’t get access to their source files.
Also, avatars often have customizing options built in, and the marketplace also allows variants to be included.
You can still use other marketplaces to access or download source files – and if that is you, or your market, we aren’t getting in the way there.
Sorry, but I disagree to a certain extent.
Q: Can I grant source file access to buyers who have purchased my avatar on VRChat?
A: Yes, but be aware that VRChat does not officially support this. Choosing to share source files off-platform significantly increases the risk that your content may be pirated.
Putting this in the FAQ is very telling of a concern I’ve had with this for a while: some creators (and probably more over time) will just stop allowing for downloading and editing of their avatars in favor of this system, instead. The verbiage itself is very intimidating and seems to imply that if VRChat DRM isn’t used, the seller will just lose money.
I say this as someone with 113 DRM-free purchases on Booth alone (and counting). I’m not looking forward to a potential culture shift over time in which most of the content is DRM-locked and only a few select avatars are able to be downloaded and customized.
The above being said, I think this is a fantastic way for Quest-only users and those intimidated by Unity to enjoy content in the game while the original creator is rewarded for it. I hope this is successful in that regard.
Nobody is owed access to a creator’s assets for their own personal repurposing… That comes off very entitled. It’s not “grassroots”, it’s just unauthorized use of someone’s art and effort.
If a creator wants to make their assets available for purchase, they can still do that, this system is not stopping that. And thus you can modify those ones. Ultimately the choice should be up to the creator, not YOU.
Will there be any performance quality control put in place, such as forbidding Very Poor avatars from being sold? Or requiring avatars to be Android/iOS compatible?
At the moment VRChat seems to be predominantly Very Poor avatars, and that’s just on PC at that. I feel it is important to incentivise creators to optimise their things otherwise the prevalence of heavy avatars will continue. Priority has always been looks and features with little interest in performance. As that is what sells.
As someone’s who intentionally doesn’t show Very Poor avatars for performance reasons. Most people tend to be an imposter or fallback avatar as a result. I am hoping the avatar marketplace will discourage or forbid Very Poor avatars from being sold to encourage avatar creators and sellers to make more optimised avatars.
This is a really contentious point and I’d like to be able to share more of our thinking here past what I’ve summarized, but I can’t do so quite yet. If nothing else, I’m certainly sure the intent with the Avatar Marketplace wasn’t to shut down creators, remixing avatars, or any of that, but I can understand where that fear comes from.
What I’m getting from this post (and the others) is that there is a fear we’re trying to prevent the sort of creation that makes VRChat magical – we are not trying to do that at all.
This system is not designed to supplant existing systems, but to make it much easier for users that simply want to buy a high-quality avatar and instantly have it. Over time, there’s of course room for this system to expand, and we are well aware that it’s missing bits and pieces that would enable newer users to customize their avatars or turn them into something “new.”
That doesn’t mean we haven’t talked about those things or that they couldn’t come in the future – but we have to start somewhere.
Nevertheless, as we do build the Avatar Marketplace, we’ll be considering these sorts of opinions in what comes next.
If you’ll read my original post, I’m asking VRC to enable creators who want to make source available. I’m well aware that I’m not entitled to anything. Many creators explicitly encourage transformative personal use in their TOS, as well as clothing authors who commonly have a “commercial” tier of their license, to allow for use in other for-sale complete avatars.
^ this. I would want my customers to still be able to access source files for customization. And permit them to use the avatar in other applications
And to be upfront, yeah there is a bias for me, AICom. I would want customers to be able to use the assets to make avatars for their AICom stream setup. Other examples would be to export the avatar for warudo, vseeface, desktop mate, etc.
To be 100% clear, I think the system described is nearly perfect! I just would like to see first party support for source asset downloads, with that option being a creator choice, not always available. If anything, I think that solves a lot of your user needs while you build in things like an accessory system and texture swapping, while enabling rather than burdening creators with the effort to distribute source files themselves.
I also acknowledge that I’m coming from the furry community, who are particularly passionate about remix culture compared to other avatar creation communities on VRC.
I also acknowledge that I’m coming from the furry community, who are particularly passionate about remix culture compared to other avatar creation communities on VRC.
A lot of communities are like this. It was the core behavior, even before furries. Back when all that was available was MMD and TDA avatars, it was all about remixing those TDA avatars. But you are right, this is exactly one of those things that needs to be preserved.
To add to this, it might open for expansion of the store, allowing original creators to sell an avatar, and upload their remix (including fashion sellers) with a prerequisite to purchase the original.
I believe the section added about uploaders was after another group tried to create the same service as what this update will bring. As creators who use SENT in blender and are part of their discord, they announced a couple months ago their own avatar upload services, and then about a week later was taken down due to vrc reaching out to ask them to take it down. But I do understand the concern as well given that I’m a newbie avatar creator, but a non newbie avatar texture creator thats a hobbie
Please either implement avatar search to VRchat or reverse this decision. Requiring creators to charge money to be listed in the store at all is just wrong.
Have you considered that users may abuse this to create artificial scarcity with “Limited Time” Avatar listings? I think many people are not fans of FOMO oriented listings regarding digital content. I am curious if this is something that VRChat would be okay with or against, because it seems like if the system works like you explained, then such a thing would be bound to happen.
Source files available for purchase, this is VITAL even if newbies aren’t gonna use it. You get the avi ready to go immediately and can customize it later. Win-win for newcomers (who then have the files when dipping their toes into Unity) and enthusiasts (who have less barrier to entry to purchase avis).
Or at the very least a code generation system that could give you a download or discount code on Booth/Gumroad/etc (I saw some people talking about charging less for the svi without customization, and I like that idea but think there should still be an avenue to full customization without buying the avi all over again).
I really wanted a VRCFury style modules system that would let you buy clothes, skins, etc and attach them to a purchased avi, allowing for easy customization by newcomers. Some would be exclusive to certain avatars (e.g. a Novabeast clothing set would only attach to a Novabeast avi) or global (e.g. GoGoLoco). Bonus points if this could be done on the fly so a player could quickly pull some performance intensive toys (e.g. Liindy’s excellent wares) off their avatar to lower its performance rank before going clubbing or something.
All Very Poor avatars should be REQUIRED to offer a performant version by default. I think we’d all be better off that way.
I think all of these could be implemented in the future, and certainly hope they will, but for now the avatar marketplace will disappoint newcomers due to lack of customization, and disappoint enthusiasts by not having access to source files.
So after reading all of this, talking with other users and my own community. This is where we think this is going to be facing some major problems that will stifle the growth and usefulness of this feature:
Currently it does not appear you will be allowing creators to download assets for fashion creators and remixers.
You do not seem to have a plan to allow these fashion creators or remixers to upload their content with a prerequisite to purchase another avatar.
You are not allowing free avatars
PC Users are feeling this may be only for Quest users
Your content guidelines to not direct users to where they can purchase source files, while not offering them, seems misaligned.
You are not allowing NSFW avatars, which will be less appealing to creators who sell their content on other sites and their customers. As much as I don’t like NSFW stuff myself plaguing vrchat, it doesn’t mean I think it should be gone. I think that stuff should remain private, and am all for that kind of privacy. But it is also a major thing people come to this platform for, so it can’t be avoided. By not allowing NSFW, people would rather still go through the process of purchasing from other sites and not from the marketplace.
Your marketing is treating all source files the same. To most store fronts there are two types of files that meet this definition: “Unity Asset Bundles” and “Artist Source files such as blender files and psds”. Other platforms faced the same issue, and almost made the same mistake of not offering the artist source files. To their success, the artists on these platforms realized they would have to offer these. But you offer no way to do so.
Numerous individuals have mentioned that the cut that is taken out of vr credits is very high, and will only drive up prices to the point that the convenience isn’t worth it. Especially if source materials are not offered.
Nice to haves, would encourage more users to use this:
Redemption codes
I think this feature is not fully there yet. And if released as is, in it’s incomplete state, it will not workout. It is an idea that needs to happen and should have been there a long time ago. But when you release it and it’s offering less than your competitors and only banking on convenience, the convenience is meaningless.
It has also been discussed, that a Potential way to make a remixing system easier to implement, is by splitting components of the avatar into different asset bundles. This can be done transparently by the SDK. In specific meshes should be split into different asset bundles. This would then allow for a user to sell remixes or fashion that can be added to the base/dependent avatar.
(I will be updating this as I hear / read more feedback)
The tl;dr
9/10ths of the avatar creation market is fashion and gimmick designers, and the current setup for the market has no support for those creators. Users find their expression and originality through this content, without this, the avatar market will feel cheap and sterile.
Due to this, a lot of customers heavily desire having access to the artist source materials, should they want to use their avatar on other platforms.
I feel that the money spent on avatars through this system is going to be a short burst until people realize there’s no value in their purchases. And if released as is, it’s going to give a bad and long lasting impression of the feature, stifling it’s success.
Does VRC have plans to offer other payout processors for the creators?
Requiring the use of Paypal to receive our payments makes a lot of creators uneasy, given their terrible reputation of closing accounts or freezing funds at a moment’s notice, without recourse or exact reasoning.
Having other options would be very nice, like a wire transfer after hitting a threshold, or a service with a better reputation like WISE.
Limiting us from guiding users to alternative options where they might end up with features banned from the in-game marketplace, or for source files completely contradicts your reply. If you acknowledge that your platform is meant to be for users who typically wouldn’t use the files or don’t have access to a PC, why prevent us from leveraging discoverability for a few conversions?
These are very similar restrictions to the ones Apple imposes with their marketplace and has landed them in hot waters with lawsuits, with courts demanding many of these anti-consumer/anti-competitive policies be removed, one of them being directing users towards alternative payment options.
I understand the initial launch is intended to reach users not served by existing web-based platforms.
Any plans to expand the storefront to web though?
Except that you shut down third party uploaders such as Third3D and only just recently updated the terms to bar such systems. I’ve had my own plans for an uploader over two years ago, I inquired support about whether it’s acceptable and took over a month to receive a template “read the terms yourself” reply, despite nothing directly contradicting it at the time I dropped it because of the ambiguity, fast forward two years and I was right, instead of working with the community you’re once again working against it.
I get that you’re trying to make money, if your solution is good enough or better than the alternatives, it will, but you’re actively shutting down or barring us from steering users towards (potentially) better options (entirely depends on the user and their needs, informing them of other options is ethical imo, even when it’s simply for a cheaper price, not everyone has the same purchasing power or disposable income).
Just about every avatar on Third3D is not suitable for this new platform for one reason or another, and it also usually accompanied source files instead of replacing them, providing users with near “instant” access, to the extent that community tools can.
