So something that I’m scratching my head on would be the Avatar creators. Would the definition of an avatar creator include people who make avatars for content creation or avatars and avatar prefab systems for selling, redistribution, and noncommercial purposes like VRLabs?
That makes sense. I appreciate chatting with you about it.
One angle I would have you ponder: If there is a Creator Program. Maybe a less noisy layer on Canny or a private section of Canny would be useful. One where people in the program are submitting and discussing creator related bugs without the noise of the larger user base.
I really am focused on bugs here, with my thoughts. Not feature requests. Those are a whole other animal.
I am aware that:
- This gets into the elitism concerns some people have.
- This also adds more buckets for the Canny facilitators to go though. But maybe it’s worth it and would end up being more efficient use of time. At least with regard to creator concerns.
I really wish people would use forums, having info that I can google goes so far, but yes I do agree it is a generational problem. Often times people move their questions into dms because they are too nervous to ask questions where others can see them asking the questions. I do like the idea of a dedicated online place where creators can ask questions and network, but I would elect it to be free of gatekeeping as possible while still having some barrier for entry.
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Discoverability is a big problem with Discord.
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Personally feel like if its a completely separate thing where the opinions and suggestions are going to be seriously considered then it should be kept as filtered as possible without there being explicit favoritism.
It should NOT be somewhere to ask beginner - average help related questions. There’s plenty of places already that can be used by those people to good help with what they need whether it be the VRC discord, forums or an asset makers specific discord.
There does kinda need to be clear numbers / rules on access though so that people don’t assume favoritism, but that could be difficult to do since “creator” is so varied (prefab / utility makers, tool makers, world creators, avatar creators), something like downloads, player visits, store sales etc could possibly be used but then would need to somehow check that, can do that easily for VRC Worlds but other third party things would be more difficult
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I believe this suggestion has a simple underlying problem. Exactly what is being communicated? VRChat has historically ignored almost all forms of advanced creator feedback in favor of its own ambiguous, undefined goals. Advanced creators do not know what to expect of VRChat as a content delivery platform in the long term; it is not a question of “how” or “when”, but rather “what is even going to happen”.
As it stands, delivering certain kinds of experiences on VRChat is simply not viable, and unless the company creates a clearly defined picture of what kind & what scale of content can be expected in the future, advanced technical questions will always eventually cascade into discussion of this uncertain future.
A more easily accessible creator-centric Discord server is not going to solve the problem of sheer lack of communication and vision from VRChat itself.
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To my understanding there’s already a creatorLevel and other factors that got into your trust rank (and beyond it). Here is an example of my own account from last year:
nuisanceFactor
: 0
creatorLevel
: 40
socialLevel
: 98
timeEquity
: 53
level
: 69
Utilizing these detailed stats while also collecting enough data to make an average “passable”/“acceptable” level for an actual creator would be a great way to distribute discord server invites to creators through in-game maybe? This is one of my ideas based on your existing systems and data you store about users (trust ranks aren’t that simple as they seem to be on the surface).
This also could be integrated into discord roles based on user’s content stats (such as world popularity/heat etc.), such feature could be used when in a help related channel when someone is asking for help/advice etc and they aren’t sure of the credibility of the person answering.
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Totally agreed. This lack of outwardly communicated vision has been, to a point, a long term problem. And it’s a pattern I see repeated over and over. Including very recently.
I think the answer of “well, we like to see what the community does” worked up to a point. But now that there are major changes being placed in the app that impact incentives and social structures, it’s a bummer that there is little guidance about how these things are envisioned to be used.
It’s a bummer to think the answer is “whatever the you guys figure out that makes us the most money. If it ends up being XYZ, so be it.”
Will underpowered devices continue to pull VRChat content down to their level? Will you start enforcing such flattening of things? That build target problem really is a big one…
I could list a few things where that seeming lack of vision is a bummer.
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This would need to be kept up with much better than most curation is currently in VRChat. I personally feel things get centered around certain creators, worlds, etc. in the past, which ends up coming off as favouritism within the community, when it’s most likely just lack of updates. I do strongly believe things should be curated more often than they are now. I am not sure how algorithms work within VRC but seeing the same worlds on curated (again, not sure if things are entirely algorithmic, or curated) lists for years now, isn’t where I’d like to see this program headed.
A board or group of members deciding and reviewing these things is crucial to avoid issues like this.
It’s also not going to be easy to validate submissions, there will need to be a dedicated team validating hundreds of submissions, and it will need to be kept up with. Community members would be willing to Volunteer for this sort of thing, but this would require a more open approach from the VRChat team than I think we have seen in the past.
This could easily be wrapped into the same “Partnership Program”, if the scope is wide enough. I do think the scope should be wide enough for many people to apply and be approved. But I do certainly agree that a certain specific level of skill should be determined and applied to this process.
As for this, I think the target demographic shifts greatly, and most people responding to this topic would prefer the latter.
I also completely agree with these mentions from Lexz, although I do think doing it based on numbers may be a bit rough for creators who already have the knowledge, and want to jump straight into the pool.
VCC Things
I (personally) think a very important thing that the VCC is missing, is a true, centralized repository, where others can verify the compatibility and stability of other’s packages. I still find the VPM is a “Package Manager”, that still misses the core concept of a centralized, curated community repository. Instead, having hundreds of repos by various individuals of various quality. There should be more structure to this.
Taking from something like OpenUPM (which I personally would like to see VPM relate to further) or any operating system-based package manager like scoop.sh, Arch’s offical repositories or even the AUR, having a structure of official repos (like the ones we have right now including the “Community” repo, as I would not consider this a community repo at the moment), a proper centralized community repo, potentially rolled into the aforementioned creator program, and then user repositories, would greatly help improve the issues end-users have with compatibility in the future.
And uh… Proper semantic versioning please 
(I think you might already be on that though lol)
Something like this will need proper maintenance from members of either the VRChat team, or the community. Keep in mind that most open-software repos are maintained purely voluntarily, and I do believe VRChat is capable of organizing this, rather than keeping everything in a “walled garden” as it feels currently. I understand VRChat tends to keep things proprietary, and that’s fine but for something so community-based such as the package manager, this doesn’t make a ton of sense.
(I’ve moved this in here as it might be veering off-topic from the initial post.)
As it stands right now, I feel like it’s nearly impossible to communicate properly with the VRChat developers (and sometimes even other advanced creators), as there is no direct pipeline for this. I’m left with a full server list, and documentation, which is more than enough to get by, but for a user-content-based environment, I feel VRChat could be pushing the envelope further in this regard. The largest obstacle here is very much going to be how to manage verification, however I’d like to assume there is a system in the works for this with the creator economy coming, etc.
The last thing I want to touch on with my post is the lack of communication in regards to future features. This could very obviously be helped by said pipelines, programs, and structure, but having features be talked about with arbitrary release timelines is painful. I spent months working on a project in 2019, that could very easily been done in 2022 without the SDK installed, just because I had absolutely no idea what the projected timeline was, and it felt insanely volatile. I still feel this way about this project as I have absolutely no idea what upcoming “features” are planned within the next quarter, feeling I could spend hundreds of hours working on something that could be obsoleted within hours.
I agree and disagree on the idea of a dedicated server at the same time and let me explain on my insights below on why.
My agreement and insights:
Dedicated Discord Server for Creators is needed, but needs to be done rightfully and correctly. It is a closer way to communicate with most of the content creators that is for sure.
If a dedicated server were to be made, there would need to be strict rules and regulation apply specifically on the level of creators talent and reputation before anyone can join in the server for creators. It is hard to judge the quality of these content creators and their level skills without interacting with them or knowing them first, of course and no one really wants to be in the position of recruiting or observing the level of these content creators just so they can get in.
The improved messaging channels is a great idea, but i feel its only useful towards the bigger creators and doesn’t actually work for the fewer smaller creators.
The in-app articles is a good idea and would constantly keep creators or users up to date.
Disagreement:
The part where i disagree on the server idea is because there can be a number of things that the server is used for outside of VRChat and that is not good. Each content creator aren’t on the same level as the others. Some are competitive and even hostile towards one another. We don’t want that in a unique server. Example is, some other content creators ideals and visions differs from others and this may be a hindrance to even the developers ideals.
Here are some other problems that may appear in the creators server for communicating with you guys.
- Language Barriers
- Sub-communities needs/wants/feedbacks
If the Partnership Program is what i think it is and that it involves currency or any other type of large values, then it will Not play well in between each of the content creators.
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The way i see it creators should have their own discord server. However creators can also do the same thing in the main discord server.
If you look at how Genshin run their discord server you can see some individuals have creator roles.
But the main problem is see is, who falls under creator role in this case?
streamers?
youtubers?
world creators?
avatar creators?
these need to be addressed.
if you say creators which ones?
I’d just like to drop in and comment on the Discord vs forums angle. I personally believe a forum with private posting permissions, but still mostly publicly viewable would be ideal. Using a forum would give posts much more permanence, being less likely to be missed in a sea of short knee-jerk reactions. Being publicly viewable would make the posts search engine indexable (not to mention linkable) even for those who do not have permission to post. I think this would help transparency a lot.
On another note I have seen discussed, I really would prefer not to see tiered ranks in whatever form this concept would take. Or at least try to keep them to a minimum. I feel that a big problem currently is that you have to be in the “in group” to get your voice heard. In my opinion the less people speaking on others’ behalves, the better. I don’t want anyone speaking for me and I don’t want to speak for anyone else. (or as little as can be reasonably accomplished)
I really do like this idea in concept. It would be a big step towards fixing one of the bigger problems VRC has faced for quite some time.
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This is a sound start, but my comment will be long long-winded. Who is a creator? I ask this to the extent of when does a creator get considered a ‘creator’ by the VRC team standards. Is it just someone who has uploaded to the platform? Even if they have just uploaded a purchased asset they have technically ‘created’ a new piece of accessible media on the platform whether that be accessible only to oneself or to everyone. What if someone made a world entirely from scratch but has only created 1 world and is not particularly active in the community, is that a creator? This is something I feel is very important to consider and also communicate with us. I personally consider myself a creator considering the hours I’ve put into ‘creating’ on this platform, but would the VRC team think likewise of my own outlook? I don’t have the fondest of clue based on this sentiment. It’s hard to encourage exclusive communication when there is no form of understanding if you are ‘creator’ enough to be a part of the discussion.
I feel like a creator program has to be treaded on very lightly, we don’t want partners to have large advantages over the average player and we also don’t want our ‘best creators’ to be targets of harassment. If it’s proposed ideas to what the program could entail that you’re looking for I have a few to offer:
- Create a VRC group that is exclusive to these members
- Make most perks somehow connected to a check for being in this group so it’s easier to add and remove members from the program.
- Possibly, a name color change or an extra icon on the nameplate (this would need to be able to be toggled for harassment purposes) and also a badge, since we have early supporter badges.
- A slightly larger cut of their 50% revenue maybe 55% (this might be a stretch)
- Free VRC+ for those special members sounds appropriate if it is exclusive enough (Unsure of how stringent getting into this partner program would be)
- A badge icon that shows on worlds or avatars that it was uploaded by a partnered creator
- A partnered creations filter button and or explore tab on the left (though the explore tabs do feel a bit crowded as is)
Work that is still in labs should be excluded from the last 2 points for an even playing field.
This was just a poke in the dark at what I believe could be valuable benefits to such a program without affecting or disadvantaging those outside the program too much. You’d want to make sure their creations don’t get any significant traction boost in normal browsing outside the specified search areas so all is still fair competitively.
I hope that my outlook on both of these topics was valuable feedback in the slightest.
Best,
MikeCore
I think anybody who wants an invite should get one. I am really against the idea of creating a “tiered” system of creators where only people in the “in” group get access to information about upcoming changes, features, etc. (Not to mention the ability to give feedback on those changes before they become set in stone)
IMO Anybody who creates content for this platform is a creator, regardless of how popular they are or what connections they have. If you must gate access to the discord somehow, just showing that you’ve uploaded an avatar or world should be enough.
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I think the only thing you failed is “There was no meaningful open beta.” for 2022 SDK.
The creators couldn’t get ready for new 2022 SDK because of that.
If some bugs on VCC prevent doing open-beta for SDK, that should be fixed.
I honestly think that implementing this idea is a bad move. It seems like it’s becoming a gatekeeping practice for those who want to create content in VRChat. Moreover, you already have a server that helps with this. The recent SDK and VCC release didn’t seem like it was fully ready for the public yet. It broke several popular prefabs, worlds, avatars, and assets. It requires more time and assistance from creators to ensure it doesn’t cause any issues.
I love this and though I agree,
there is a small part of me that doesn’t. Hear me out.
There has to be some greater form of checking this other than just a world or avatar. There are plenty of users who have uploaded blank planes with a mirror or a booth/gumroad model they purchased and repurposed. Though I consider those users ‘creators’ in their own right their discussion in a server that is primarily focused on quality feedback could bloat the conversation making the entire purpose of this platform practically useless.
So though I dislike the idea of gatekeeping, there still should be a very low bar that is put in place that has to be met.
Gating to some extent I think will be needed to keep the signal to noise ratio down - otherwise you end up with something indistinguishable from the existing VRChat official discord. What’s important there is to have consistent, clear guidelines, with a goal of admitting people who will be “force multipliers”. Think authors of worlds/avatars with more than X visits/favorites, assets or tools with more than X downloads, articles with more than X views, etc. The idea being to bring in creators who will then impact the experience of a large number of downstream users, and who can collect and filter the voices of those users.
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My main problem with Canny is that it is just really difficult to use. It is not a good piece of software. I can’t even look at my own posts, I have to manually search for it. It actively discourages people from actually contributing to it or upvoting anything.
Why not have both? Or a combination in some way?
Discord is great because it’s very accessible and is easy to just talk about things. Forums are great for their context and longer responses. You could somehow combine the two to encourage discussions but also keep track of ideas and input.
I wonder if a stackexchange would work? Or something that has similar features. This way information can be more easily tracked and maintained. A thought, idea, bug report, etc. would be an object, and you can track things around those objects. Rather than the information and communications being constantly splintered and difficult to navigate.
Which I think is the biggest issue currently: The communication and resources are splintered all over the place. There is no single hub where people can actually contribute, maintain, and discuss information. I could argue the forum is such a place, but it still isn’t since it’s challenging to navigate still and most people don’t know it exists.
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Completely agree. Though you can search your username to find your old posts it is less than ideal.
If this creator discord does become a thing, I think the combination you mention is a great idea! If the VRC Team could somehow make a discord bot and a channel/forum channel that posts when these discussions go live I think that’d be of great interest. It’d allow user to easily get notified of these forum posts when they are live on their phone via Discord if they so please by a click of a button!
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